That's Good. Pick it Up!
Nate Oxman is a true Renaissance Man—Marion caddie, teacher, longtime golf writer, published author, and now podcast host. On That’s Good. Pick It Up!, Nate sits down with the authors behind some of golf’s best books, sharing the stories, ideas, and moments that make the game so meaningful. If you love golf and a good read, this one’s for you.
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That's Good. Pick it Up!
Lee Pace - Good Walks: Rediscovering the Soul of Golf at Eighteen of the Carolinas' Best Courses
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of That's Good Pick It Up. This is Robbie, the founder of Best Ball, and producer of this show for my friend Nate Oxman and John Morton. Today we're taking a look back at an episode from the Whole Story Podcast, where we talked to an author, Lee Pace, out of North Carolina. Lee covers all things North Carolina Tar Heels, sports in that area. But he's also very well written and an expert in the Pinehurst area when it comes to golf. This interview came during the U.S. Open a couple years ago. So we want to hear more about Lee and his writings as it relates to golf. But until then, we hope you enjoy this one.
SPEAKER_01Today, we are joined by Lee Pace, hailing from Chapel Hill, North Carolina. If you haven't had a chance to find some of his work out there, I was reading it, actually, I was reading it sometime some earlier this week. It feels like you're just strolling down the back nine with a friend. I don't know if that's a hopefully Lee appreciates that sort of thing. Writes about golf history, uh details about different courses, as well as uh, I'm assuming someone he cares about, the University of North Carolina, so not a Blue Devils fan. He's gonna go with Duke, not gonna go with Duke on that one. We're gonna go with the other color blue. Uh he writes about golf history courses, including the golden age of Pinehurst and the rebirth of number two. And so, along with his wife Sue, who is a very talented graphic designer, uh, they work together to produce books and all sorts of other things golf-related. So, Lee, thanks for uh joining us on the on the Whole Story Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Guys, thanks for having me. Uh, totally unsolicited. I am a Western Birch customer as well, and they do make teas in Carolina Blue, which is the like, like, lighter color, of course.
SPEAKER_01The correct color, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, uh, talk to us about where which started first, writing or golf for you?
SPEAKER_00That's interesting, Jonathan. I actually both kind of started about at the same time. In 1980, I was uh on the sports staff of the Durham Morning Herald and was one year out of uh college at Chapel Hill, was on the sports staff of the Herald Sun, and one of my jobs was to write about golf. And the more I wrote about it, the more I wanted to play, the more I played, the more I wanted to write about it. So over those four years, uh both interests just kind of fed off each other. And then I did a three-year stint in the PR business in Charlotte in the mid-80s, and then in 1987 struck off on my own. Uh golf in the Carolinas was very healthy at the time. It was growing. Um, a lot of new golf communities and golf courses coming on, and there were a handful of publications that popped up across the landscape. So I was just able to create a bit of a niche in the late 80s and I've just kind of been writing it ever since.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you've done an incredible job covering the Carolinas. And for someone we mentioned before we started recording, I've I live in South Carolina, you're in North Carolina, Jonathan's in Augusta. But the Carolinas, this whole region is filled with great golf. Um, describe for those that that might not know, maybe they're listening from the other side of the country or around the world, what is golf in the Carolinas like?
SPEAKER_00I think that geography um is just so varied here. Um, you know, from from where I am, I can get to the North Carolina coast in three hours, I can get to the mountains in three hours, I can get to Pinehurst in just over one hour. Uh, the mid-sized cities here in North Carolina, from Charlotte to Greensboro to Winston-Salem, Raleigh, Durham, there are just so many outstanding golf courses. I was just in Asheville last week. There are four vintage Donald Ross courses within about a 10-mile radius of one another between Billmore Forest, the Country Club of Asheville, um the Asheville Municipal Course. Um there's just uh uh and the uh Omni Grove Park Inn. Uh just four classic Donald Ross courses from the 1920s. So there's just so much variety. Um you've got Seth Raynor, you've got um um uh Perry Maxwell over at Old Town and Winston-Salem, which is one of the top courses in the southeast or in the entire country for that matter. So there's just between the mountains, the coast, and everywhere in between, uh you just don't you just don't find that um in any other part of the country.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad you mentioned Asheville because I was gonna bring it up. I was reading through some of your stuff, and I I mean, honestly, I didn't know there were that many courses in such one close place. And for all you guys out there who try to plan these golf trips out to Myrtle Beach and places like that or out in abandoned dunes, if you want to take your wives with you, take them to Asheville, you'll be able to play golf as much as you want because they will find more than enough things for them to do during the day. Uh little shout out to the Biltmore if you want to go out for a little tour there too. So yeah, I mean, so talk about well, let's talk about Asheville. I mean, you'd mention them, uh, those courses out there, the Donald Ross designs, obviously that's close to your heart just in terms of some of your other writings and other places that you've been to. But talk about, let's say, the municipal out there, just the beauty of that course.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was just there uh last weekend. I've been writing about uh the evolution of the of the Muni there. That I I talked about my stint at the Durham Herald and beginning in 1980. I actually worked one year at the Asheville Citizen Times in 1979, and I had taken some golf lessons and played a little bit as a kid, but it was that year that the the golf bug truly hit me. I was working for the morning newspaper, I had my days free, and there were a handful of other guys on the sports staff that play golf. And so we would go around to various courses in Asheville and Hendersonville, Western North Carolina, and one of them that we played a lot was the Asheville Munich. And it's a 1926 course. Um contrasting nines, the front nine is flat, it's in a valley near the Swannanoa River. The back nine winds up around the Beverly Hills neighborhood. And it was a fun course to play. And over the years, though, it had just not gotten very good management. It didn't have a lot of resources. And a great story over the last two years is that the city of Asheville, um, the Donald Ross Society, a handful of other entities have chipped in and are put about three million dollars into the golf course. Uh, Chris Spence did a master plan that um um the the management company has implemented. And I've been there twice over the last year and just seen what has happened there. Uh they put a lot of money into it. One of the big problems there is the 10th and 11th holes kind of run down a valley uh from a high to a low, and it was uh a stormwater drainage problem. Uh whenever you have a uh a rain, it will literally turn into a river. And they they literally um, I think are tying it up here this week or next week. I know Father's Day is a goal that they have to be able to reopen 10 and 11, but they've been closed for a number of weeks to rebuild the drainage, reside the golf the holes, and just totally rebuild those two holes to solve the drainage problems. So um well, there used to be a lot of puddles and a lot of flooding down on the 1011 in the front nine, uh they now the drainage is much better. They've repaired a lot of the turf, um, uh cleared out about a hundred trees. So it's just a remarkable job that Parren, the director of golf and the city management there um have have done there at the Ashewell Muni.
SPEAKER_02You've done a lot of writing on course restoration, um, you know, bringing back, like you said, communities that that do these things. One of your books that you've written is The Golden Age of Pinehurst, the rebirth of number two from back uh when 2012, I guess Corin Crenshaw redid the course. Um tell us just let's start with number two, right? Pinehurst is uh obviously an incredible home of U.S. golf. We've got the U.S. Open coming up, but let's focus on number two for a second. Describe that course. I'm sure you've played it numerous times, but describe it for for those that might be listening.
SPEAKER_00Well, the the number two, uh there are the two biggest things. Number one is it's built on sand, um, which all the quote sand hills, of course, are built on sand. There's I think twenty-some million years ago that area of North Carolina was underwater. And so when the oceans receded, uh it retained its sandy soil. And so when when Donald Ross came from Scotland to Boston in 2000, or I'm sorry, 1900, um to find his niche in the in the golf world, and he met James Tufts, who had created Pinehurst five years earlier. Uh golf was not part of the landscape or part of the plan, original plan for Mr. Tufts. It golf evolved into being a part of this wintertime resort that he created in North Carolina. And when Donald Ross came, he did not come as a golf architect. He was just a he was a maker of clubs, a greenkeeper, an organizer of caddies, an organizer of events, an instructor. He did he did everything, but he found this sandy soil, and he found there wasn't anything there other than a small village that Mr. Tufts had built. And so James Tufts made the decision to we're gonna create more golf inventory here. And Donna Ross found the sandy soil. He found the native wiregrass, which reminded him of the of the uh the gorse and the heather of of Scotland. And so he was able to create golf holes in a a landscape that was reminiscent of what he knew. So there was no there were no water hazards, there were no lakes, there's no rivers, no mountains, uh, no nothing. It was just a a pristine landscape for creating golf holes uh similar to what he knew from Scotland. So he just started building holes, and so there's there's nothing flashy, there's nothing fancy, there's no um um there's no signature holes on number two. There's the only water hazard on the golf course is is a pond in front of the 16th T. And that was not created as a hazard, that was merely a a depression in an area that was not particularly aesthetically pleasing, so they just put water over it uh in the early 1900s to fill it up and make it look a little bit better. So there are left-to-right angles, uh, right to left, um, up some uphill, some downhill. The um the the fairways meander in all directions. The bunkers are placed to direct you away from them to help give you the best angle into the pen. Um, Donald Ross originally built the golf course on greens that were putting, they were not greens, they were putting surfaces. They were made out of clay with sand mixed in. They were flat, they were square. Because at the time, Pinehurst was a winter resort, and they had not developed the technology to grow grass that could survive the winter traffic of of all the golfers. So it was not until the mid-30s that he and Frank Maples, who was the agronomist, the green superintendent, the construction supervisor, were able to develop a strain of Bermuda that they could put on the greens that would stay firm and that would be healthy through the winter. So that's when he uh sculpted the greens in their configuration. He built the hollows, the dips, the swales, the round them. And so that's when uh it so it's been now what almost ninety years since Pinehurst number two has existed in the l in the in the form that we know today.
SPEAKER_01Well, and obviously it's going to become more popular if if you're not aware, I don't know if you listen to this podcast and live in a hole that the U.S. Open's coming up at Pinehurst number two. Uh what, in your opinion, what makes it such an ideal location for the USGA as well as just sort of the anchor uh for the open over the next couple years?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh Johnson, that's an interesting story. Um it did not start out that way. In fact, uh Pinehurst had to do quite a uh a sales campaign in the late 90s and the early 90s. Uh uh uh Robert Dedman of of Senior of Dallas, who created Clubcourt in the 1950s, bought Pinehurst out of a consortium of banks that had held it for two years from 1982 to 1984. Uh the facility was to a degree run down. Uh there were some a lot of infrastructure changes that needed to be made, a lot of upkeep to the golf courses. And at that time, one of Mr. Deadman's mandates to Pat Corso, who was the president and CEO at the time, and Don Paget Sr., who was the director of golf, was we want to bring major championship golf, we want to bring elite championship golf back to Pinehurst. And this was in the late 1980s, and at the time, the Corso and Paget did not know exactly what direction this was going to go. So they courted the USGA, they courted the PGA of America, they courted the PGA tour, and just let the chips fall where they may as to what sort of niche might be established. And the first domino to fall was the 1989 U.S. Amateur uh that Vicky Getz won. That was the beginning of a relationship with uh the PGA, with the USGA. They were able to uh sell the PGA Tour on bringing the Tour Championship to Pinehurst in 1991 and 92. They were able to, after the successful 89 U.S. Amateur, uh the USGA decided to bring the 94 senior open to Pinehurst. So in the early 90s, they were refurbishing the place, the facilities, the hotels, the um the restaurants, the golf courses. Uh they made a decision to build Pinehurst number eight with Tom Fazio that opened in 1996. They had the the PGA of America brought the Club Pro Championship and played it on number eight in 96 and 97. So a lot of things were just happening here. And um 1993, they finally got a commitment from the USGA to bring the U.S. Open to Pinehurst for 1999. And uh I read not long ago last week or so talking about the opens coming to Pinehurst and talked about somebody made the point of what a ridiculous decision it was to go nearly a hundred years without ever having a U.S. Open at Pinehurst. Well, it wasn't possible for 75 years from the beginning of the USGA in 1895 to 1970 because Pinehurst closed during the summer. There were and the U.S. Open has always been held in the summer. So until air conditioning in the 1970s, it was not even possible to have the U.S. Open at Pinehurst. So with the advent of air conditioning in the 1970s, that was one of the first dominoes that fell. And the 1999 U.S. Open went very well. It was successful, not only from the golf course, but the state of North Carolina rallied around. The corporate Chief Taines stepped up. Uh corporate sponsorship was through the roof. Ticket sales, it was a sellout long before 1999. So that was the first domino that fell to really establish this relationship between Pinehurst and the USGA, and they've simply built on it ever since. Still there? Can you hear us? Hey, you there, Lee? Sorry.
SPEAKER_02I'm here. All right, perfect. So I feel like I'm walking or getting a guided tour of uh the the Hall of Fame here with all the history of Pinehurst and everything. And the town has really embraced it. I was there a couple weeks ago. Um what did you expect from this year's U.S. Open with uh you know the best players in the world gathering? They don't do it often enough anymore with the Live Tour, but what are you expecting with this year's U.S. Open?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's uh can't wait. Uh starts uh next week, next next Monday. We'll we'll all be there starting for the week. Um among the the players, obviously Tiger Woods is going to be a fascinating story element uh um to the week. He finished third in 1999 uh behind Payne Stewart and Phil Mickelson. He finished second in 2005 behind Michael Campbell. He was not there in 2014 because of uh one of his back surgeries, so he was given a special exemption. So he he will certainly be of interest. Um, you know, a player like Roy McElroy, who's having a great year, who has not won a major in some time. Um you know, it would be great to see him contend. Uh it's been interesting with the three opens at Pinehurst. Um you had a marquee leaderboard in 1999 with with Tiger, with Payne, with with Mickelson, um several others. Uh 2005, Michael Campbell won, uh promptly disappeared and has not been heard of since. Uh 2014, Martin Kymer dominated from start to finish. Hadn't heard from him since on a major championship or uh even a PGA tour mode. So I've I I think everybody around the resort and town and the media and the spectators are just what would love to have a marquee leaderboard uh you know through the weekend and and see how that goes. Uh first time the U.S. Open has been contested on hybrid Bermuda Gr Greens. Um and and and the greens are another part of the the story as to why it took so long for the uh U.S. Open to come to Pinehurst, and that um it it it it took advances in agronomic technology to allow the USTA and Pinehurst maintenance officials to grow grass that could be firm and fast in the south the third week of June. Um you know, Pinehurst is always you know, it's being a a private club and a resort, its high seasons are the spring and the fall. And so maintaining firm and fast greens those times of year are different from the heat of the summer. And back when the PGA tour came to Pinehurst in the 1970s, uh uh for the world, it was a series of events over about 11 or 12 years. It was called the World Open at one point, it was the Colgate Hall of Fame classic, it was the Hall of Fame classic. For the most part, those dates were late August and early September, which, as we all know, living in this part of the country is very, very hot that time of year. The greens at the time were bent grass, so they had to be syringed, they had to be heavily watered, so that allowed the players to essentially throw at dartboards uh with their approach shots. That's why we got some numbers like 62 and 63 and 64. And during this time, the USGA said, we can never hold the U.S. Open on a bent grass golf course that has to be watered so much during the um the hot summer months. So it wasn't until the 1990s that they were able to develop Penn G2, which they put on the Greens in 1996. And those and the Greens um um have held up uh fine through those three U.S. opens that have all been held in in June. Um it's interesting that uh Payne Stewart won at one under, I believe, in 99. Michael Campbell was right around par. Martin Kimer was, I think, eight or nine under in 2014, but um he was eight shots ahead of the field. So there have only been three or four players in the three U.S. opens that have been held at Pinehurst who have broken par. And so as soon as the 2014 U.S. Open was over, they tore the greens up. They had been covered with A1, A, A2 Ben Grass. At that time, they went to hybrid Bermuda and Champion Bermuda. They will be a little firmer, a little quicker than in the past. Um, the weather has been good this spring leading up. Um, it's been um not too warm, not too cold, a good amount of water. So I think they'll have the greens groomed um uh very well and they'll be firm and fast. And um it it's gonna be interesting to see a decade later. Um I don't think the players are they're a little bit longer. Uh the the longest of the long are not that much longer. I think the entire field as a whole is significantly longer, but um, it'll be interesting to see how it holds up.
SPEAKER_01So, what will your week look like? Will you just be in front of the TV like the rest of us, or do you have some inside scoops?
SPEAKER_00I'll be working the um uh the Southern Pines Pile. Pilot is a daily is is a community newspaper that has been um led by publisher David Waranoff since the uh late 1990s, and he has been very aggressive with the pilot's coverage of the newspaper ever since then, uh starting in 1999. It's a three-time a week newspaper, but he made the decision to go to a daily tabloid, which has become a tradition that he and a lot of other people are very proud of. That uh whenever the U.S. Open comes to Pinehurst, the pilot hires a handful of writers and photographers and editors to come in and just work for this one week to go to a daily tabloid format. So um I will join that team as I have for the previous opens and write a daily column that week. So I've already been doing a lot of writing over the over the spring. I've turned out thousands of words leading up to it. So there's been a lot of story angles, a lot of stuff to write about. So it'll be fun to join a team of writers and photographers to put together a uh the the open daily, it's called uh you can you can find it online and and in person around Pinehurst Southern Pines and the golf course itself uh next week.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely be checking that out and uh put a plug in there on the uh in the show notes. Uh so I'm guessing you uh you you mentioned earlier your love of golf and your writing kind of started at the same time. We ask all our guests uh to tell us your most memorable golf shot. It could be uh you know, you might have hole-in-one's, it might be, you know, a shot that saved you from something, but what is your most memorable golf shot?
SPEAKER_00The interesting story there, uh, Robbie. I was 1996. Um I played Forest Creek the first the year that it opened uh with three golf buddies. We made an annual trip uh to Pinehurst, and we were fortunate to be able to get on on Forest Creek that year, and I made a hole in one on the sixth hole. Um, I think I hit a six iron. And so 25 years later, Forest Creek was nearing its 25th anniversary. I had been hired by the club in 2019 to produce a 25-year anniversary book for them. Um, the Tom Fazio course, the first course, the South Course opened in 1996, the North Course opened in 2005, and I was at work on that book coming down the home stretch for it to come out in the fall of 2021. That July, I was looking to tie it up and I wanted to write kind of an afterward piece, just sort of tying up um, you know, 25 years of of the club's existence, of my life in Pinehurst. And so I called David Lee, who was the core superintendent and a good friend of mine from the Durham Chapel Hill area, former superintendent at Hope Valley over in Durham, and said, I'd I'd like to come down and just, you know, let's sling the bag over our shoulders and go walk nine holes uh twilight and just um you know, let me just take it in. And lo and behold, we get to the sixth hole of the south course, and this is witnessed by somebody else.
SPEAKER_01No way.
SPEAKER_00Um, and it was not 25, it was not 25 years to the day, but it was 25 years to the month. It was in July of 91. We get to the sixth hole, I tee it up, I hit a nice shot, and my eyesight is not as good as it was 25 years ago, and I honestly I thought maybe it went over the green. And I looked at David and said, hmm, you think that's long? He said, That may be in the hole. So we get up there, and sure enough, the ball was in the hole. So I'm playing with the course superintendent, and um he uh radios one of his guys, and they come out and they take the flag off the um off the hole off the pen and present it to me after we play nine holes. And I sent it to Tom Fazio, and he signed it, you know, noting my my aces on that hole in '96 and 2001. So I've got it hanging here on my office wall.
SPEAKER_01So it's uh you couldn't write a better story than that. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Well, and one of the guys I was playing with uh in 96 is one of my best friends, Mick Mixon, um, who was working for the Carolina Radio Network in 96 to be the play-by-play guy for the Panthers over many years. Walking off the hold, I I caught I called him, and fortunately he picked up and he said, Man, it don't tell anybody this because they won't believe it. Um and uh but it uh yeah, it's so I I got a couple good stories, and I I got what I set out to do. I got a great afterward for my book on Forest Creek and the 25th year anniversary book. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow. It's hard, it's hard to make up those stories.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, that's well, that's what Mick said. You you can't make this up, nobody will believe it. You know, that comes from the truth is stranger than fiction category for sure.
SPEAKER_02Very nice. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Um well let's do this. We always we try to have some fun towards the end of our interviews with our guests. We do kind of a rapid fire thing. We call it the quick nine. So we'll go back and forth asking you some questions. First one, what is the favorite golf course that you've ever played?
SPEAKER_00Royal Dorknock, uh, with with it without question. That's uh I've been there twice, no, three times. Uh uh twice while working on Pinehurst books, uh just wanting to find out where Donna Ross was from, where it all started. So it's uh and you you can understand after visiting Dornock why Pinehurst was so appealing to Donna Ross as a young man when he moved to the United States.
SPEAKER_01What course is at the top of your bucket list if you still have a course that you haven't played that you want to?
SPEAKER_00Uh Ballet Bunyan is one of them in Ireland. Um I played a handful of the trophy courses in uh in in Scotland. Um I have not played uh Turnberry. Um I would love to play there. Um within um I've not played Nairn. Uh I've I've played um Inverness. There are a lot of courses in in the Inverness area that I want to go to, but um um I just next five, ten years, but while I've still got some some energy, I just want to go back to uh um Sunningdale in England outside London is is also very much at the top of that list. Very nice.
SPEAKER_02All right, so you being a Carolinas guy, what is the best course? I'll give you two. What's the best in North and South Carolina that nobody is talking about?
SPEAKER_00Man. Well, they are talked about, but they're not they're they're both exclusive private, but two of my favorites are Old Town in Winston-Salem and um Yeaman's Hall in in Charleston. Um, you know, they are talked about, they are known. It's not like they are um hidden gems, but those are um just two, you know, Perry Maxwell and Seth Rayner, um, you know, couple him, couple them with Donna Ross. But the uh the the the uh you know the municipal courses uh in both states, uh Charleston has done a great job on the restoration of its uh Charleston municipal. Wilmington has done a great job on uh uh the Wilmington Muni was a Donna Ross course built at the same time that he built the Asheville Muni. So those are three uh you know courses that don't get a lot of play, uh just those municipal courses in Charleston, Wilmington, and Asheville.
SPEAKER_01We missed the uh Charleston municipal by about three inches of rain. We had planned on it when Robbie was in the parking lot. I was about to leave the show up, and it just came down pouring. So we'll have to make up for that. Um who would be in your dream force them?
SPEAKER_00You know, I spent a lot of time with uh Bill Corrant Ben Crenshaw. Um when they were my the book we referenced earlier, The Golden Age of Pinehurst, was was built around the restoration of Pinehurst number two in 2010, 2012. And walking around that course with the two of them, um whenever they were in town over the course of 15 months through 2010, 2012, working on that was just a lot of fun and it was fascinating. Uh they were just very generous with their time and their access. Uh very rarely did they say, that's off the record, don't write that. Um but but they were just great to get along with. So I don't know if it'd be a foursome, but certainly a threesome to go back and play that course with those two guys uh would be a lot of fun. Jonathan and I'll come caddy for you. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right. Uh well, obviously, you are a very talented and well-regarded writer. Who, besides yourself, uh is your favorite golf writer?
SPEAKER_00Herb Wynn, Herbert Warren Wynn, and Charles Price would be uh right at the top of the list. Uh the first book I did in Pinehurst, it's called Pinehurst Stories, published in 1991. It was built around me going around and interviewing 18 famous people in golf and just getting their stories about Pinehurst, everybody from Ben Hogan to Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas, Sam Sneed, Billy Joe Padden, yada yada. But I also solicited um Herb Wynn and Charles Price to write pieces for that book. And so I I got to know both of them to some degree and um um developed a I wouldn't say a close friendship, but at least an acquaintance with both of them, and uh was um the the ultimate compliment when that book came out was both of them, you know, gave me compliments that it was a remarkable piece of research. And so those two would be at the top of the list, and then one of my best friends, uh Jim Dotson, is just uh an incredible writer. And um I I envy Jim and his his ability to find a story um in almost anything. I I joked that Jim could go through a drive-up window in McDonald's and come out with a thousand words with some angle and some story that I could never have found in a million years myself. So those are three of them right there. Some good ones.
SPEAKER_01Um what is your favorite snack on the golf course?
SPEAKER_00It would have to be a barbecue chicken wrap at Old Chatham Golf Club um between Durham and Chapel Hill, where I'm a member. It's a uh um one of the specialties of the house, and uh um we we've got a a a neat little halfway house there making the turn. Pop in there, grab one. Um Rudder Up would be the um the the candy bar at Eagle Point Golf Club, Bob, down in Wilmington. They have got a um uh a great little halfway house there, and they've got drawers with 15-20 different kinds of candies. You can grab little um um Reese cups, uh you can grab uh Skittles, you can grab MMs, you can grab whatever you want. Um it it's a one of the better turnhouses I've ever found as well. Very nice.
SPEAKER_02What is your favorite golf course logo?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. That's interesting. Um I've got a lot of stuff with the Pinehurst putter boy on it, uh, so off the top of my head that would that would be one of them. Um I would have to give that some thought. Um I'm sure there's something I uh I haven't thought of um come to mind, but um off the top of my head, that's certainly one of them. It's a great one. What is the best thing? The sandmines logo uh for Pinehurst number 10 and what will be number 11, um just south of the the main resort campus at Pinehurst. Have you played that course yet? I have. Yep. Played it when it opened. Uh Tom Doak was there. It's uh outstanding facility and uh a terrific golf course. Uh it's a difficult track, uh, but it's has a different look and feel. And when they get the Core Crenshaw course added to that, uh that's gonna be between Doak and Core Crenshaw at one facility. That's gonna be a home run for Pinehurst and just add to a great story there.
SPEAKER_01What is the best thing about golf in the Carolinas?
SPEAKER_00It's just the ability to s sling the bag over your shoulder and go for a great walk. Um I did a book three years ago with the University of North Carolina Press called Good Walks, and that's built around 18 chapters of finding 18 clubs or courses that are walkable, that allow walking, that have a great walking culture, that have a tremendous story behind them, that have great history. And in each place I found a member or two that, like me, avoids golf cart, golf carts like the plague. Uh, that sometimes, if we're required to walk, might decide not to play. If we're required to ride, might decide, nah, I don't want to do it. You know, golf's a walking sport. I'm not gonna waste four hours having to ride in a golf cart. And just the the friendships I was made, I made the people I was able to to meet, um, and just the the bond that you get walking down a fairway, uh the the bag slung over your over your shoulder. And obviously we all want to play good, but even if you're not playing well on that particular day, just getting the exercise and being out in nature and you know being able to, you know, look at what's around you and uh just digest the environment, um that's that's a gift and it's something that we all need to be very thankful for.
SPEAKER_02And I noticed you had a picture of a flag bag uh on I think your website or something with the different golf flags. Uh the flag bag golf company that I guess made your bag.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah. Uh Good Walks is uh is is the name of the um website and uh flag flag bags made me a bag with six uh I I think we use six logos um of different courses in the Carolinas that were featured um in that book. And so that's uh that's a neat thing. It's uh the logos, the the flags that they and if you don't know, uh check out flagbag.com. They they make wonderful minimalist old-style throwback golf bags from literally making them from used or new pin flags. Um, and you can send them whatever favorite flags you've got, and they'll make you a wonderful golf bag from them.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Perfect for uh for walking some golf courses. Well, yeah. Final question: who do you think will win the 2024 U.S. Open at Pinehurst?
SPEAKER_00I made the I I brought up the name Tiger Woods um a couple of you know questions ago. I I'll go with that. That'd be a lot of fun, and what a story that would be if Tiger would come out of some of the difficulties he's had physically uh being away from the game and use that sponsor's exemption to uh win the open. What a story that would be.
SPEAKER_01You'd have to make sure. Oh, yes. You're back? I'm here. Well, Lee, this has been everything I hoped it would be. Uh it has been an amazing time uh just hearing about the history, the stories, and uh like I said at the beginning, it felt like we were just going on a walk down the back nine. So maybe someday whenever we make it up in your direction, we'll look you up and maybe we'll go throw some bags on and go for a walk. We'll definitely make sure not to encourage a cart. So I guess Robbie and I have to start walking a little bit more in order to get ready to go play with Lee. I'm ready. Let's go. All right. Absolutely, look forward to it.
SPEAKER_00We'll we'll tee it up.