Ward Clayton - Legendary Caddies of Augusta National

*This episode was originally recorded for The Hole Story Podcast. 

Ward Clayton is a writer and author. In this conversation, we talk about his book, Legendary Caddies of Augusta National. Enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello, and welcome to another episode of That's Good Pick It Up, a podcast mostly about books. This is Robbie Woodard, the founder and producer of All Best Ball Podcast, introducing a show for our friend Dave Oxman and John Warden. Today we're actually taking a look at one of the episodes we used on the Whole Story Podcast. From an author, Ward Clayton, who wrote a book, Legendary Caddies of Augusta National. It fits perfectly with what we're doing here. That's good pick it up. It's a great story. You'll learn a lot about the Masters of Augusta National. It's just a great book. Check out what Ward's doing. Make sure you're following along to this podcast. Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And check out bestball.com for all the different podcasts and shows that we have going on. Now, we hope you enjoy this episode. If that's good, pick it up. Ward Clayton, thank you for joining us on the Whole Story Podcast. Ward, uh, like we mentioned in the intro, uh, wrote uh originally Men of the Bag, Caddies of Augusta National, uh, but now he's got a new book that we're gonna talk about that he kind of redid. And so we're excited. Ward, thanks for joining us uh today on the Whole Story Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

I'm I'm looking forward to it. Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Absolutely. Go ahead, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I was gonna say, so one thing we always talk to folks, obviously this is a golf podcast, but you're a writer about golf. So which bug bit you first? Was it the golf bug, or did you start writing away at six years old, long, long prose or something like that in first grade?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Um, I think it was in concert with one another. I grew I grew up in in Durham, North Carolina, and ACC basketball, even though it's not very good right now, was sort of in my blood. And uh believe it or not, South Carolina was a member of the ACC at that time.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Oh, I know. That's our one conference championship in basketball.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Exactly. So um football and basketball were my uh my cornerstones, but uh I lived about three blocks away from the Durham's municipal golf course. So that was my babysitter in the summer. So you turn in one direction, you can go to the public golf course, you turn in the other direction and go about two miles to Duke University, where college basketball was pretty good. Of course, I saw the light later and went to school in Chapel Hill at North Carolina, but still I'm a product of my environment, you know, ACC basketball and golf next door, so therefore that's that's been a big part of my life for the extent of that. So writing was always interesting to me to answer your question, is that I I was always intrigued with not how many points so-and-so scored, but what motivated them, what was their backstory. I wanted to know who the person behind the scenes was and what they did to motivate themselves and get ready to play. So that's that's where that came from.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Love that. So did you uh you started playing uh at an early age, you play other sports as well. I mean, obviously you kind of in basketball country there. Were you a basketball star and everything else?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

And star is a stretch. Uh I I was a uh I was a basketball player, a football player, but golf was interesting to me because uh I took some of the guys who played football with me in high school to uh the public course to play golf, and and they they couldn't get their arms around it because in football or basketball, if you ran faster or tried harder or hit harder, that was effective. But in golf, if you did that, it fell apart. So it was uh more of a mental kind of thing for them. They really had to understand you had to play within yourself. So that was always interesting to see people that didn't play golf trying to tackle golf who would who'd grown up playing team sports. So um golf golf's a little bit of a different animal, and you gotta you gotta you you you can't get too emotional or too down on yourself. So I think we've all learned that that didn't always work, but still we try to do that.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Go ahead. I was gonna say, so maybe just like Michael Jordan, you struggled with your uh making the basketball team as a freshman or sophomore and then sort of made the switch to golf, or when did when did journalism and writing begin? Was that high school days where you began checking the backstories of the football players that you knew?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, yeah. It began in high school. Um, boy, this goes back a long way here. Thank you. Um I was the uh co-editor of the high school newspaper.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

And so that that's when the bug sort of hit me. You know, in in those days, in Durham, just like in Columbia or Augusta, there was a morning newspaper and there was an afternoon newspaper. And so you were sort of surrounded by it. So, you know, with you know, University of South Carolina or Master's coverage or Duke or North Carolina or NC State basketball or football, I was surrounded by that. So I I was always intrigued by how you put things into words. It was always something I always liked telling the story in full, sort of a long form. I guess from you guys' perspective, you do a podcast now, podcasting is very much of a long form kind of format versus just having a you know a five-minute, ten-minute radio or television interview. So I always enjoy getting on and talking at length with people with things like this.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I feel like writing and what we're doing, like you said in podcasts, we love the backstory as well. We don't really talk about the day-to-day, hey, you know, let's talk about Victor Hovlin, who just won a golf tournament, but let's get into the backstories. And we like stories about people kind of around the game, like yourself, that have been doing great things. And, you know, we mentioned before that this is coming out the Thursday of the Masters Week. Uh, and you worked for uh the Augusta Chronicle um for what, nine years? Back in the 1900s, I like to joke. Um from 91 to 2000, and I'm guessing was that it probably wasn't your first introduction, being in the Carolinas, you were already introduced and knew golf and knew the masters and everything, but that's probably where you really got your first kind of on hands, you know, nearby experience of Augusta National and the and the Masters, correct?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

First time I ever went to the Masters is 1985 when I was working in the Durham newspaper, which preceded me going to Augusta. And I was the first time I walked on Augusta National, I thought it was Astroturf. It you know, because you know, I grew up on a public golf course and played some decent golf courses, you know, Pineur's it far away. But still, you walk out on the turf at Augusta National, it's just un as surreal as it feels like you're walking on fake grass. So that was my first um experience with going to Augusta. I was I I was I was bitten with the bug, you know. Robbie, I have some friends who have gone for longer than I have who still go. And we always talk about we're going to the promised land. It's like when the uh Israel Israelites were released from slavery in Egypt, they they they made a trek toward the promised land, and that's what we sort of that's what's we sort of call it going. It's like you know, going to a you know, on a I don't know what you call it, uh going to the on a to a mosque or something how people or or to a to a Christian lands, to a Christian uh heritage place. That's what we sort of feel like we're doing because we were, you know, we feel like we're in a world apart when you go there.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah. No, I I think there'll be golf in heaven for sure, and it will probably look and be maintained by the same folks to keep up Augusta National.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Your your pilgrimage across in the Red Sea or Washington Road, depending on which direction you're coming from.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

I don't know which which is worse, trying to cross Washington Road or the Red Sea, and that's a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

So talk to you moved to Augusta 91. Is that when did you begin writing the book about these caddies? Or maybe maybe talk more about discovering the stories of the caddies because they're there to be had, and your book goes into incredible detail. But some of this history as someone who's a transplant to Augusta is unknown to local Augustans and probably hidden in some facts in some factors, right? Like not wanted to be talked about in the in the in the open.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Well, your your first question about these these caddy stories, since you're an Augusta, and you know, the Augusta Chronicle historically has done a really thorough job on the covering the topic, particularly in advance. And we would do a lot of historic stories and go through the archives of the Chronicle, and occasionally we'd run into in the 40s and the 50s the mention of the caddy, but quite often it was just by the caddy's nickname. And I said, Wow, that's that's sort of bizarre. Um, who was this person that was caddying for you know Jack Nicholas or Arnold Palmer or Ben Hogan, etc. like that? I said that's an interesting story to find out who these guys are to see if they're still around the world. So that came to the forefront. You ask about Augustinational and you know secrets and so forth like that, you know, I think they they keep their brand um as um tight as they can. And therefore, things like, you know, what what's the speed of the greens? You don't know that. You know, how many people attend, they don't divulge that. Um, you know, things of that nature. So you're sort of left to try to do some breeding around it, trying to figure out what the what the what that those those stories are. But this caddy story intrigued me because a lot of these guys were really instrumental in leading these two players to victories, but they didn't they they didn't get a lot of attention because any of the caddies until 1983, they were all black. So therefore there wasn't a lot of interest from the media during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and then the 70s in telling that story.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Well, you took uh, like we mentioned, you had your book, uh The Men on the Bag, and you've recently redone it, uh, now called Legendary Caddies of Augusta National. I love this quote that gives, you know, talked about the caddies. These caddies and their stories throughout the years have formed just as much fixture of the Masters Tournament and Augusta National as any club founder champion azaleas, slick greens, green jackets, and pimento cheese sandwiches. So I think that's a great way to describe just what these caddies mean to the course, to the tournament in general, and and it's a great summary of what people are going to get when they when they read your book.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Yeah, well, um I think you know, when you think about the masters, you you you think about all the things you mentioned, but how often do you also think about the the jumpsuit these caddies wear? You know, that that's that uh Carl Jackson calls that who caddy for Ben Crenshaw and his two wins, he calls that the tuxedo of caddy uniforms. So um, you know, and I can tell you from talking to some of these Augusta caddies and outside caddies, those jumpsuits is it's a it's a love-hate relationship with those things. You know, if you've got a 85-degree day in Augusta, that they hate those jumpsuits because they're warm, they're hot. But if it's a cold day, they love it because it gives them a little uh little you know something against the cold weather. I I I I think in in some of the intelligence these guys developed over the years with how to read greens, where it was, how far it was from a certain spot, how the wind blows, things of that nature, that stuff still exists. There's no doubt about it. That that heritage of the Augusta caddies lives on today. Um since, Robbie, since you're in Columbia in 2020 when Dustin Johnson won, and he's got his brother Austin, you know, both of them from Columbia. Austin Johnson, his younger brother's his caddy. To this day, they've got a guy who works at Augusta year-round named Steve Kling. And Kling befriended Dustin and caddied for him away from Augusta National. Every year they would come in in advance, and Steve would walk them around the golf course in practice rounds before before Master's Week and say, hey, you know, this green's been changed here, this is a new T-Box, these trees are no longer here, uh, all this kind of stuff. And the the rule at Augusta is the before Master's Week, if you want to come play a practice round, you've got to take a club caddy. But Austin Johnson, who's his regular caddy, can go along and be with him and sort of walk around and scout it out. So I I think a lot of that heritage of some of the changes to the golf course, some of the subtle changes, still carries on today, and is using that as an example.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I think there'd be incredible stories, and I know you've gotten to play it through the the media lottery, but I think there would be just incredible stories just to go walk with a caddy or two and and just have them kind of tell stories as you as you walk the course. Uh, have you had the opportunity to do that?

SPEAKER_02 14:12

I've gone to a couple places on the golf course with Carl Jackson, which is really cool. We did we did a uh uh a video two years ago with Carl, and we went to the 13th hole, and that was the first year they had extended the T-Box on 13 back into the trees. And Carl was not only talking about the changes and how the hole plays, but he also pointed out, he said, you know, I used to walk from Sand Hills, which is the neighborhood where a lot of these caddies grew up, which is on the other side of Augusta Country Club. I'd used to walk down the edge of Augusta Country Club and come onto the grounds of Augusta Nash through a hole in the fence behind 13th T. And that was just cool hearing him talk about that. And he went over and pointed at Race Creek where Nelson Bridge is and said, We used to swim in the creek here, we used to fish in the creek here, and we would build a fire over here on the bank and cook fish. It was just really cool to hear him talk about his upbringing and how it, you know, you know, basically he grew up on that golf course. And I thought that was tremendously interesting to hear him talk about that. No wonder he knows how the golf course plays. He had these these guys like Pappy Stokes tell him how the golf course plays, but also he grew up there so he could go over there in the summer and be there and sort of see how the golf course looked when he was, you know, when it was uh when it was not being used when the club was closed.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Talk more about that because you lived here back and you came in 85, you worked here in the 90s, and then today obviously being familiar with the course, but you also interacted with those folks, I'm assuming through the Augusta Chronicle and everywhere else in town that they remember grabbing their bringing their lunch with them on a Sunday afternoon to watch the final round where you could just walk in and play versus what it looks like today, where as soon as something is built or created, there's 18-foot tall trees that block the view of anything. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yep. Um I I think uh Augusta National's always been known for its precise conditioning. Um I think back in the in the 40s and the 50s it was better than everywhere else, but it wasn't quite as, you know, like like a green carpet everywhere. You know, you had some rough patches in places. You you look at old pictures of the 12th hole, for example, you know, the edges around Ray's Creek, you know, they had little patches of rough and and and things of that nature, but still the golf course was much better than than than people were used to playing. So um uh I I I think the golf course has become the sort of looking for. You know, everything is mowed to a certain height, whereas it was back in the forties and fifties and maybe even into the sixties, there you know, there there was some places on the edge, but that's the way you know, golf courses weren't maintained that way that way anywhere. So I think I think that's that's changed. You know, this is the s it's the standard for if you want to have a perfectly conditioned golf course. Augusta's the example. So I think a lot of folks, you know, the players' championship two weeks ago, you know, it's now oversee ryegrass and white sand in the bunkers. I really noted that this year when they were showing some of the pictures. I've not seen that bright white sand in those bunkers at at TPC Sawgrass like it was a couple weeks ago.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

And there's rumors that TGL had uh some similar sand in their bunkers, right, for the indoor.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

I wouldn't be surprised. You're right. I was I was in the North Carolina Mountains on vacation last week, and I'll share a story with you. There's a little town called Spruce Pine, which is a real little community in the North Carolina Mountains up near Boone and uh in that area. And that's where that sand comes from. Um Clifford Roberts used to go to Grandfather Mountain Golf Club in the summer, and that's where he lived, and some of the other staff members did it. And they loved the sand they used in the bunkers there because the the ball would not bury in the bunkers because it was basically really, really, really fine rock that was developed up there. And they um Augusta National imported that sand down from the North Carolina Mountains to Augusta. And a great story this good old boy up in the North Carolina Mountains who runs this quarry, which does the sand. Um the uh some some a couple Japanese golf courses found out that that's where the sand was developed. And so they reached out to him, didn't speak very good English, and they're on the phone with him, and they said, Will you make the sand? And I said, I should say, Yes, I do. And I said, Well, we would like to get some. And he said, Okay, okay. He said, You then they said, You send sand, we send money. And the fellow said, What did you say? He said, You send sand, we send money. And he said, No, no, no. You send money, we send sand. So uh that's another example of how uh Augusta National has found something that they didn't want the ball to bury in the bunker, so they got this bright white sand, which was beautiful, but it also allowed for the course of play to be different. And I know guys have to get used to that. I remember David Duvall used to always say that he wore his sunglasses as wrapped round oakleys. He really needed those at Augusta because the sand was so bright, it really hurt his eyes. So um he he liked to have a little bit of shade.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

As uh as someone who frequents bunkers, I know what he's talking about. It can't it can be pretty bright.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, so mine are always buried, so maybe I just need to find better sand.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah, you just need to find better sand. Well, what uh what does your week look like as it uh, you know, we're talking today is uh uh a few weeks before, but this will come out on Master's Week. What does your Master's Week look like? Because you're still you're still writing, you're still in in the journalism business, and so I imagine maybe you'll be on site for doing some things there.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

I'll be there from the I'll be there from the week before.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

You'll go to the ANLA and everything else?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Be there from uh four o'clock, well Friday play the rounds uh for the ANL all the way through the conclusion of the match.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

So uh I've been there for about twelve days. Is that twelve long stories that you write every night huddled over your desk at the hotel?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

That's the picture that's the picture I want to tell you.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

They let him they let him stay in Butler Cabin, so he's uh Yeah, that's right, in the basement where they have the studio.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

There you go. Um but uh we're there from first thing in the morning until play concludes and thereafter with with uh video and uh store you know, written words, you know, social media across every platform, things of that nature. So it's a it's a busy place and a busy time. But as I always tell people, boy, where else would you want to work if you're having long days? So that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

During that working time, though, are you are do you have opportunity just to get out and and then kind of take a deep breath and enjoy just the surroundings and being there? I mean, uh I know it's probably even while you're working, it's like you know, a Amazing just to step foot on the grounds, but uh are you allowed to you know find peace and go watch a shot or two?

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Oh yeah. Um Robbie, if you if you if you were there and weren't able to go out to the golf course, you might as well be in uh New York or somewhere like that. You know, you got to go out and experience it and sort of get the get the you know get get motivated by going out there and seeing that. I I love to go out and walk the front nine because even though a whole the entire 18 holes is now televised, you still don't get a real sense of the of the of the front nine, I don't think. Particularly, you know, some of the greens that you you see out there, like the you know, the fifth green or the sixth greens, come to mind because they're just you know they're humongous with these big you know humps and bumps and elevation changes and things like that. I think that's really the cool part of the golf course because see some of the front nine that you you you don't experience quite as readily.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Do you have a favorite spot on the course for stories to develop?

SPEAKER_02 23:06

My favorite place to watch the golf tournament is behind seven green.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 23:11

If you're behind seven green, it's one of the highest points on the golf course. You have a scoreboard right behind you, you can see two green, three T, seven coming at you. You can flip around and you're at 17 fairway. So um it's it's really it's really cool to sort of be in the middle of everything. Plus, you're not far from a restroom and a um concessions, eighth T is not far away. It's really a uh really sort of a central point of the golf course. I think that's a cool place to watch because you got a real a really great vantage point.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Well, you mentioned the the scoreboards, and we do a we do a round table kind of before and after every major, and we just did one uh for the masters coming up, and I think Jonathan was the one that mentioned one of his favorite things about Augusta National and the Masters is that nobody has their phones. And you talk about the scoreboards and just how they tell a story because people are watching it when they hear a cheer and echoes through the pines on the other side of the course, they're sitting there watching with anticipation of what just happened to see these letters and numbers start flipping, to see what what story just took place to change these things. Uh, I think that's one of the beautiful things about Augusta National.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Well, not only that, but you also, if you go to concessions and they have a little table out back, you share tables with people. Yeah, you're not sitting there diving into your phone, you're asking, you know, Robbie, where are you from? You know, you know, and all of a sudden you struck up a conversation. Um I think and uh I'm gonna I'm probably gonna get the author's name wrong here, so I won't mention it. But the Golf Writers Association of America, one of the writers won an award this year for the story about what happened last year or the year before when the trees fell on 16. And nobody got injured. One of the little parts of that story, which is interesting to me, was the people that were sitting near where the trees fell were paying attention to their surroundings. They weren't diving into their phones, so they probably were aware that a tree was some difficulty and was getting ready to fall, so they were able to move quickly. So if they would have been on their phones, who knows what would have happened. That that that's that that's one of the cool things you talk about getting away from everything when you go on the grounds at Augusta National. Not having a phone allows you to interact with people more readily, be aware of your surroundings, and plus you gotta do like old people like I like me, you've got to figure out well, if we get separated, we got to meet at a certain point at a certain time.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

So that's pretty cool. Yeah, when you're there with your kids, always kind of have a check-in moment, like, hey, every uh every two hours, let's say, let's meet at uh meet at this certain spot. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yep, no doubt. Maybe that's your next book, Stories from the Concession Tables, and you can talk to everybody. Because it to be, I mean, if you love golf, or even if you don't love golf, it's still probably one of the best days of your life if you're if you have the opportunity to go. Because it as someone who's gone a few times, and obviously you've been there a bunch, it's hard to remember that it is a rare opportunity for almost everyone else in the world.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

I agree. There's a guy, and once again, I'm I'm uh don't remember his name off the top of my head. He's had tickets for 40 years. Every year, he's he's from Western North Carolina. Every year he identifies a handful of people who've never been, and he brings new people to the tournament every year. That's perfect. Um I told him that. I said, you know, I've never been before. And he said, What are you telling me that? He said, I've had people tell me that before, and they've been ten times, so I I sort of vet people that have never been before because I get just as much joy out of them going for the first time as as I do going for my 40th time away.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

I've got a friend, I've got a friend this year that maybe we're lucky enough that we're listening to this on the podcast in his truck on the way for his first time to the national. So Sherv, I'll make if we're on our way to the national on the on Thursday, Sherv, we'll make sure to fast forward to this part so you know you got your highlight shout-out. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

So it's uh it it's a cool that's always one of the coolest things for me is to see somebody that's never been there before and get their perception of what it's like to be there. And you and to be truthful with you, you don't have to be a golfer to enjoy that. I always tell people that. If you enjoy going to like a park or uh you know gardens or something of that nature, that's what you're doing here. That's it's really cool. And plus, you don't spend a lot of money on food either.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

So that is true. That is true. Yeah, we um I've got I'm proudly displaying my uh press credential application that was rejected this year. Um, but it's up there for motivation because these are the stories like we would love to tell. We would love to go and and talk and interview people about hey, is this your first time? Is this your 40th time? Uh, and just hear those stories uh because those to us, it's it, you know, golf is about people for us and and the experience you get to hang out if you're playing, you know, four or five hours with somebody, and the stories that come from that, or in special places like Augusta National, the first time, the 40th time, and and all in between, or bringing a kid, bringing your dad, um, all the different things that uh that are coming. So one day we'll see in the press room um for uh for the uh for the masters tournament. But you know, masters is full of tradition, and I'm curious what what are some of the traditions of the Masters, besides maybe just the caddies and their white jumpsuits uh that stand out to you? What are your some of your favorites?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I think the champion's dinner is pretty cool. Uh champions dinner is so exclusive. It's just the guys who have won and the chairman of the club in the room. It wouldn't it be great to be a fly on the wall in that room and and just hear some of the conversation that goes on there and some of the food and some of the atmosphere there. That you know, I I I think a lot of the guys who won in recent years asked about that. I think they get more nervous talking about determining what the menu is gonna be and getting them having to stand up and make a speech for that group. I think that makes them more nervous than standing on the first two sometimes because they're sort of out of their comfort zone. They're not swinging a golf club, they're you know, having to make a speech or choosing food, which you're not sure how people are gonna react to. So that's I think that's that that's a that's really a cool tradition every every Tuesday night that they do, and uh I'm sure they probably could be very influential if there's some controversy in the world of golf or some controversy uh on the golf course, they probably weigh in at that time too.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Well, especially with some of the crowd this year, uh I guess in the past few years, right? There's controversy already in the room, so I can't imagine what some of those conversations are like. I think Jonathan and I would probably agree that making a speech and picking out menus would be much less nerve-wracking than swinging on the front on the first tee in front of in front of all those people. Uh they would be uh the spectator or the patrons, I should say, would be uh in danger zones.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Um I'd be like, you might you might want to move back. You might want to move back. So whether it's your your first time or your 40th time, there's always a memory that stands out. Uh what is your favorite master's memory? 1986 is is unparalleled.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Um I was with working in the press, but uh was with some friends from North Carolina who were in attendance. And uh started watching Nicholas on the ninth hole. Nicholas is their favorite player. Bird in the ninth hole, and Buddy Whitfield, who's no longer with us, Buddy went 56 Masters. Um Buddy said um after the ninth hole, well, Nicholas made that. Every time Nicholas makes a birdie, we've got to drink a Budweiser. And um lo and behold, Nicholas shoots 30 on the back nine. So, you know, that was that was that was quite the back nine to have that happen, whether whether you were cold beer or whether you were just uh watching the golf. That that's the one of the few times I can ever remember people running around that golf course. And security's telling them to stop, but you know, security got into it too. They were probably running from spot to spot too. So it was uh that that was really a cool experience. Not only Nicholas, but look at look who he was beating down the stretch. It was like a who's who of the golf world that day. So that was uh that was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Every year new memories are uh are created. So how much golf are you getting to play? I know you're in the Jacksville area, and when we first started chatting about uh coming on this thing, you were hanging out and going to watch the players. How much golf are you actually getting to play?

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Not enough.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

That's always the answer, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Well, well, I wish I I wish I could play more. Actually, I was in in Charleston two weeks ago with some friends from North Carolina, and we played there. And we played three places. We played uh Wild Dunes, I don't remember the second course we played. We we played uh Charleston Municipal and that was by far the best experience. We walked, paid, you know, I'm out of town, out of town senior, fifty bucks to play walking. You couldn't beat it. It was it was really cool, and it was a windy day, and you guys have played Charleston Municipal. The back nine was like, you know, uh uh standing upright on some of those holes out there by the marsh was difficult. That's a that that's that's that's a treasure there to have a municipal golf course like that. And they are busy from sunup to sundown. It was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah, Jonathan and I had a tea time there, and we get in the parking lot, and the bottom fell out, and there was no golf going to be played that day. So it's uh it's on it's on the go back and do it again list.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah, it's it it was really cool. Really, really well conditioned. The greens are crazy, sort of like the guests in National's greens are. It was it was just fun.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

So we ask all our guests then. Um we you know, everybody wants to play more, but we you know, golf is about memories. So what's the story of your most memorable golf shot?

unknown 33:41

Mr.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

More golf shot. In 2019, um had the opportunity to play the old course. And I did it via the single golfer route, which no longer exists. So I show up at 2 30 in the morning to the starter's facility and got on at 3 30 in the afternoon. Like, you know, we walked speed of play here. We walked 18 holes with a foursome in four hours. The coolest shot was uh was uh hitting it over the corner side of the room. Little people know there's a ball. So um just just just being in that atmosphere hitting you over the corner of the road of the road hall was really fun. No no crazy great result, but just walking by there was really neat.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Really neat. And you didn't hit the hotel, which is uh impressive in itself.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

No, I did not. I was excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Very nice.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Love it. Yeah, I'm gonna store it. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Don't squeeze it up there. Yeah. Well, we always do this thing called the quick nine. Jonathan, why don't you kick off our quick nine little back and forth uh kind of rapid fire questions here?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yep. So the first question is what is the favorite course that you've played?

SPEAKER_01 35:31

All right. All right. Well, I imagine doing what you've done, you've got to play a lot, but what course is at the top of your bucket list?

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Bucket list. Um I'd love to play there. Uh Bandon, any of the courses at Bandon Dunes, because Bandon's sort of the replica of courses in the UK and so forth in Scotland. So I'd love to do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Um got a good caddy program out there. You can go write some stories about those guys.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Oh, no doubt. No doubt. Well, it's it's interesting you mentioned that. Mike Kaiser, who built Bandon Dunes, built his caddy program to be one of the top jobs there because he realized pretty quickly, you know, the three of us go out there, we're gonna spend more time with our caddy than we are with each other. And he wanted to make sure the caddy program was stellar so that people got a great experience. So the caddies are essential there. So that that's pretty cool. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

All right, besides Robbie and myself, we'll exclude ourselves. Who would be in your dream foresome? Dream Forsome. Three other guys.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Uh it'd probably be guys I grew up with in North Carolina, just like we were in in Charleston two weeks ago. Um, I just enjoy playing golf with the people I grew up playing with when I was a kid. You know, I could say Tiger Woods, Arnold Palmer, Ben Hogan, Lee Trevino, things like that. But I would think those three guys would be fun. Because if I play with those guys, I'd play like a dog because I'd be so intimidated.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

I love it. All right. Favorite caddy nickname.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Oh, golly. Uh I'm gonna say uh Willie Cemetery Perchy. And I have to tell you the story about that. Um Cemetery was the name for President Eisenhower when he was a member of Essentially. But he got the nickname um Dead Man because when he was uh catting, he was also a drummer at a nightclub in Augusta, and he was dating this young lady, and she wanted to take it further and get married, and he didn't care to do that, so he broke up with her. And so she was offended by that, and so she got some of her friends and met him out back of the joint he was playing drums at and attacked him with knives. And he went to the hospital, and evidently the uh doctor gave him too much ether in surgery, and they thought he was dead, and so they sent him down to the morgue, and he woke up in the morgue and scared the mortician half to death, and therefore he got the nickname Dead Man. Um President Eisenhower thought that was a bit too rough of a nickname, so he changed his nickname to Cemetery because he said all dead men live in cemeteries. So uh so that's that's my favorite one, but you you can go down the list of you know uh Poe Baby. His nickname was Poe Baby because he always he was always complaining. So Robert Cigarette Jones, and he had to have a nickname because his name was Robert Jones, Bobby Jones. And he played football at Laney High School in Augusta, and when he was one day after school, he was behind the school smoking cigarettes with his friends, and the football coach caught him smoke smoking the cigarette, so therefore forever he had the nickname cigarette. So um there's so many nicknames like that, and you know, uh you guys probably have nicknames too, but uh I don't know if you want to reveal those or not.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Nothing as good as cemetery. Do you think do you think you could go to the national now with a stovetop hat on, like stove pap? Stovepipe? Stovepipe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Probably not. They'll make you wear the green baseball cap. So a cool a cool thing, I'm changing the topic here, but at the Masters in two weeks' time, you're gonna have Joe Lacava the third and Joe Lacava the fourth caddied in the same tournament, which is I think is really cool. I I don't think any any father and son have ever caddied in the Masters, at least as far as knowing documented cases.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

So that's pretty what is your favorite golf book besides the many that you've written?

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Probably uh I'm reading one now, actually. It's called Commander the Cheat. It's Rick Riley read a book about Trump playing golf and cheated when he played golf. So um it's pretty intriguing with some of the shortcuts he has to he takes on the golf course when he's playing golf. So that's that's that's the one that comes to mind right now.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

That's the current one, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yes, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

All right. If you could hit one golf shot or play one hole at Augusta National for the rest of your life, what hole or shot would it be?

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Twelve. Just because there's so much in it.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

The first shot or a different shot?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

From the T-box or the drops in.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Yeah, the t the the T-box on twelve because the hole on the golf course is the most intriguing because the wind is whipping around there. And I've seen guys who are have a routine and they stick to it when they get to the twelfth hole, they get out of their routine. Just because it's down there on a share with a plug to hit, you know, you could be you you know, you could make a 10 on that hole very easily. You know, it's it's it's a it's a hard little hole.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah, you survive 12 on Sunday and uh and and you're near the lead or in the lead. You you have almost clear sailing from there on. That's that's an intimidating shot for uh I agree.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

No doubt.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

I was just thinking I could make a 10 on every hole at the Augusta National, but we won't talk about that. All right. Favorite snack on the golf course uh peanut butter crackers.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Side question favorite uh concession item at Augusta.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

It's a toss-up between uh traditional peanut pimento cheese sandwich or a Georgia ice cream sandwich.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Oh, those are so good. Yep. Yep, yep. All right. Let's take the master's logo out of this question, but favorite golf course logo? Ooh. Favorite golf course logo.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Probably uh Marion. The wicker basket. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Love it. Final question: what's next for Ward Clayton?

SPEAKER_02 42:10

What's next? Gosh, I think that'll be gone two weeks from now, or this the week of the masters since we're talking. I think there's always great stories at Augusta. You know, I I think a lot of people that go need some kind of pocket guy or some kind of A to Ziving away my ideas here about the masters. I think a lot of people will be intrigued with you know where do you go and where do you stay? How do you get tickets, you know, what some of the interesting stories are about all those things. It's just sort of a whole high five.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

You write something about how you get tickets, that'll be a bestseller for sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

I didn't even know I didn't know there was a secret. I was like, wait a minute, there's a secret to that.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I it's you do or don't, right? And that they uh you find out sometime in July, whether you do or don't, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

All right. Well, legendary caddies of August and Action Award. Tell everybody where they can find and purchase a copy of your book.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

You can go to your local bookstore, you can go to Amazon, you can go to Blair of Hub.com, which is not a place you get a cold drink. B-L-A-I-R-P-U-B.com. That's the publisher based in Durham, North Carolina.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Well, that's it for this episode of That's Good Pick It Up, a podcast mostly about golf books. Hope you enjoyed this one. Nate and John are doing an incredible job bringing these golf stories and authors to you, the audience. Hope you enjoy it. Make sure you are following along so that all new episodes drop right into your favorite podcast plot. Till next time, this is Robbie. That's good. Good, pick it up.